Marshall Sutherland
  

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/nyregion/no-cash-money-cashless-credit-debit-card.html

Not surprisingly, the credit card companies, who make a commission on every credit card purchase, applaud the trend. Visa recently offered select merchants a $10,000 reward for depriving customers of their right to pay by the method of their choice. A Visa executive described this practice to CNN as offering shoppers “freedom from carrying cash.”
Maria Karlsen
  
Sweden is ahead of you here. Almost everyone pay with a debit/credit card. There are mobile apps aswell, but the card is king. Fewer and fewer people are using cash even for person to person transactions. (There's a phone app for that.) There are cashless shops, health care units, and so on. You can't fill up your car using cash. Almost noone thinks about the privacy issues, the cards are so convenient. It's getting harder and harder for people that - for one reason or another - can't or don't want to use electronical payment methods.
Marshall Sutherland
  
My wife and I have been trying to use cash as a budgetary tool. The old "envelope system" where you start the week with $X for a certain purpose and if you run out before you get to the end of the week, you can't spend any more for that purpose. We started with food, so now I feel like the odd-ball paying for lunch with cash while everyone else pays with a credit card and she counts out $100-200 in cash for a trip the the grocery store.
JRandal
  
We pay most things with cash. But merchants push the little machine at us before we pull out our money.
Marshall Sutherland
  
Why Elites Are Winning the War on Cash - Daily Reckoning

The war on cash doesn’t require that cash be illegal — just impractical...
Marshall Sutherland
  
Looking at the law, it is conceivable that a debit card could be considered a "prepaid access device" since it is a "portal to funds or the value of funds that have been paid in advance and can be retrievable and transferable at some point in the future."

If you have the means to access e-currency on your phone, I guess that means you are "transporting" the full value of any of those assets whenever you have your phone with you, so you would have to declare them, if in excess of $10,000, when crossing the border.

Sovereign ManSovereign Man wrote the following post Wed, 14 Jun 2017 08:14:58 -0400
You won’t believe this stupid new law against Cash and Bitcoin
You won’t believe this stupid new law against Cash and Bitcoin

This one is almost too ridiculous to believe.

Recently a new bill was introduced on the floor of the US Senate entitled, pleasantly,

“Combating Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing, and Counterfeiting Act of 2017.”

You can probably already guess its contents.

Cash is evil.

Bitcoin is evil.

Now they’ve gone so far to include prepaid mobile phones, retail gift vouchers, or even electronic coupons. Evil, evil, and evil.

These people are certifiably insane.

Among the bill’s sweeping provisions, the government aims to greatly extend its authority to seize your assets through “Civil Asset Forfeiture”.

Civil Asset Forfeiture rules allow the government to take whatever they want from you, without a trial or any due process.

This new bill adds a laundry list of offenses for which they can legally seize your assets… all of which pertain to money laundering and other financial crimes.

Here’s the thing, though: they’ve also vastly expanded on the definition of such ‘financial crimes’, including failure to fill out a form if you happen to be transporting more than $10,000 worth of ‘monetary instruments’.

Have too much cash? You’d better tell the government.

If not, they’re authorizing themselves in this bill to seize not just the money you didn’t report, but ALL of your assets and bank accounts.

They even go so far as to specifically name “safety deposit boxes” among the various assets that they can seize if you don’t fill out the form.

(Yet another reason to consider storing cash, gold, and silver in an overseas safety deposit box.)

This is unbelievable on so many levels.

It’s crazy to begin with that these people are so consumed by the fact that someone has $10,000 in cash.

But it’s even crazier that they’re threatening to take EVERYTHING that you own merely for not filling out a piece of paper, without any due process whatsoever.

Oh, and on top of civil asset forfeiture penalties, there are also criminal penalties.

Right now according to current law they can imprison you for up to FIVE YEARS for not filling out the form. Five years.

But apparently that doesn’t go far enough to protect us against evil men in caves.

So this bill aims to double the criminal penalty to TEN years in prison.

And if that weren’t enough, this bill also gives them with new authority to engage in surveillance and wiretapping (including phone, email, etc.) if they have even a hint of suspicion that you might be transporting excess ‘monetary instruments’.

Usually wiretapping authority is reserved for major crimes like kidnapping, human trafficking, felony fraud, etc.

Now we can add cash to that list.

It’s not just government spy agencies to worry about, either.

Banks in the US are already unpaid government spies, required by law to fill out suspicious activity reports on their customers.

Then Congress started expanding those requirements to include other businesses and industries that might come into contact with cash.

Stock brokers. Casinos. Currency exchanges. Precious metals dealers. Pawnbrokers. The Post Office.

According to the law (section 5312 of US Code Title 31), those industries are also required to spy on their customers for the government.

But under this new bill, they want to forcibly recruit even more unpaid spies, including any business which issues or redeems ANYTHING that’s prepaid.

Prepaid credit cards. Prepaid phones. Prepaid retail gift cards. Prepaid coupons.

So, Amazon.com, which issues and redeems prepaid gift cards, will be required under this bill to file reports to the government.

For that matter, TGI Fridays and Chuckee Cheese will also become unpaid government spies since they both issue and redeem prepaid vouchers.

Truly these Senators have figured out how to strike at the heart of ISIS.

Further, their bill wants to pull any business which “issues” cryptocurrency under the anti-money laundering regulatory umbrella.

Here’s where these people demonstrate that they have no idea what they’re talking about.

No one “issues” Bitcoin. There’s no Bitcoin central bank. There’s no Chairman of Bitcoin who decides on a whim to increase the supply.

Bitcoin is created automatically amounts that are pre-determined by its code. It’s software.

So the Senate is essentially trying to force the Bitcoin core software to comply with money laundering regulations.

How pathetically clueless.

The bill also attempts to drop a major bomb on Bitcoin by including it in the list of monetary instruments that must be reported when entering or leaving the US.

So theoretically if you leave the US with more than $10,000 in Bitcoin or Ether, you’d have to confess this fact to the authorities or otherwise face the aforementioned penalties, i.e. prison time, civil asset forfeiture, etc.

HOORAY FREEDOM!

As you can see, this bill criminalizes or delegitimizes the most mundane and harmless financial activities, all under the guise of keeping us safe.

Of course nothing in this bill is about keeping people safe.

ISIS couldn’t care less about forms and penalties.

This bill is nothing more than another weapon in their ongoing War on Cash… and now cryptocurrency too.

Source
Maria Karlsen
  
Wow. Don't know what to say. I just pictured this happening on a global level.
Marshall Sutherland
  
At this point, it has only been referred to a committee. Hopefully, it will die the death it deserves. Then again, the law it is amending got through.
Marshall Sutherland
  
If plastic replaces cash, much that is good will be lost – Brett Scott | Aeon Essays

The cashless society – which more accurately should be called the bank-payments society – is often presented as an inevitability, an outcome of ‘natural progress’. This claim is either naïve or disingenuous. Any future cashless bank-payments society will be the outcome of a deliberate war on cash waged by an alliance of three elite groups with deep interests in seeing it emerge.

The first is the banking industry, which controls the core digital fiat money system that our public system of cash currently competes with. It irritates banks that people do indeed act upon their right to convert their bank deposits into state money. It forces them to keep the ATM network running. The cashless society, in their eyes, is a utopia where money cannot leave – or even exist – outside the banking system, but can only be transferred from bank to bank.

The second is the private payments industry – the likes of Mastercard – that profits from running the infrastructure that services that bank system, streamlining the process via which we transfer digital money between bank accounts. They have self-serving reasons to push for the removal of the cash option. Cash transactions are peer-to-peer, requiring no intermediary, and are thus transactions that Visa cannot skim a cut off.

The third – perhaps ironically – is the state, and quasi-state entities such as central banks. They are united with the financial industry in forcing everyone to buy into this privatised bank-payments society for reasons of monitoring and control. The bank-money system forms a panopticon that enables – in theory – all transactions to be recorded, watched and analysed, good or bad. Furthermore, cash’s ‘offline’ nature means it cannot be remotely altered or frozen. This hampers central banks in implementing ‘innovative’ monetary policies, such as setting negative interest rates that slowly edit away bank deposits in order to coerce people into spending.
Marshall Sutherland
  
Peak ProsperityPeak Prosperity wrote the following post Fri, 03 Mar 2017 21:59:05 -0500
The Coming Great Wealth Transfer
The Coming Great Wealth Transfer

Image/photo

In the past, I've warned about the coming Great Wealth Transfer.  But now we need to talk about it in the present tense, because it’s here.

Virtually everybody in the bottom 95% is being economically and financially sacrificed to bail out the prior bad decision of the central banks and their associated governments. And as that’s deeply unfair, it breeds resentment. Psychology tells us that resentment breeds contempt. And once there, relationship are doomed to fail. Our leaders have broken their covenant with the governed, and the governed are increasingly pissed. Expect that simmering anger to boil over at some point.
Marshall Sutherland
  
I knew larger denominations had been removed from circulation, but I didn't realize there were caps on cash purchases in places.

Sovereign ManSovereign Man wrote the following post Mon, 30 Jan 2017 11:27:35 -0500
The -other- “ban” that was quietly announced last week
The -other- “ban” that was quietly announced last week

Most of the world is in an uproar right now over the travel ban that Donald Trump hastily imposed late last week on citizens of seven predominantly Muslim countries.

But there was another ban that was quietly proposed last week, and this one has far wider implications: a ban on cash.

The European Union’s primary executive authority, known as the European Commission, issued a “Road Map” last week to initiate continent-wide legislation against cash.

There are already a number of anti-cash legislative measures that have been passed in individual European member states.

In France, for example, it’s illegal to make purchases of more than 1,000 euros in cash.

And any cash deposit or withdrawal to/from a French bank account exceeding 10,000 euros within a single month must be reported to the authorities.

Italy banned cash payments above 1,000 euros back in 2011; Spain has banned cash payments in excess of 2,500 euros.

And the European Central Bank announced last year that it would stop production of 500-euro notes, which will eventually phase them out altogether.

But apparently these disparate rules don’t go far enough.

According to the Commission, the presence of cash controls in some EU countries, coupled with the lack of cash controls in other EU countries, creates loopholes for criminals and terrorists.

So that’s why the European Commission is now working to standardize a ban on cash, or at least implement severe restrictions and reporting, across the entire EU.

The Commission’s roadmap indicates that forthcoming legislation, likely to be enacted next year.

This is happening. And it may serve as the perfect case study for the rest of the world.

A growing bandwagon of academics and policy makers in other countries, including the United States, UK, Australia, etc. has been calling for prohibitions against cash.

It’s always the same song: cash is a tool for criminals and terrorists.

Harvard economist Ken Rogoff is a leading voice in the War on Cash; his new book The Curse of Cash claims that physical currency makes the world less safe.

Rogoff further states “all that cash” is being used for “tax evasion, corruption, terrorism, the drug trade, human trafficking. . .”

Wow. Sounds pretty grim.

Apparently pulling out a $5 bill to tip your valet makes you a member of ISIS now.

Of course, this is total nonsense.

A recent Gallup poll from last year shows that a healthy 24% of Americans still use cash to make all or most of their purchases, compared to the other options like debit cards, credit cards, checks, bank transfers, PayPal, etc.

And the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco released a ton of data late last year showing that:

– 52% of grocery purchases, along with personal care products, are made in cash

– 62% of purchases up to $10 are made in cash

– But even at much higher amounts over $100, nearly 1 in 5 purchases are still made using physical cash

This doesn’t sound life nefarious criminal activity to me.

It seems that perfectly normal, law-abiding citizens still use cash on a regular basis.

But that doesn’t seem to matter.

A bunch of university professors who have probably never been within 1,000 miles of ISIS think that a ban on cash would make us all safer from terrorists.

You probably recall the horrible Christmas attack in Berlin last month in which a Tunisian man drove a truck through a crowded pedestrian mall, killing 12 people.

Well, the attacker was found with 1,000 euros in cash.

The logic, therefore, is to ban cash.

I’m sure he was also found wearing pants. Perhaps we should ban those too.

This idea that criminals and terrorists only deal in bricks of cash is a pathetic fantasy regurgitated by the serially uninformed.

I learned this first hand, years ago, when I was an intelligence officer in the Middle East: criminals and terrorists don’t need to rely on cash.

The 9/11 attackers spent months living in the United States, and they routinely used bank accounts, credit cards, and traveler’s checks to finance themselves.

And both criminal organizations and terrorist networks have access to a multitude of funding options from legitimate businesses and charities, along with access to a highly developed internal system of credit.

A cash ban wouldn’t have prevented 9/11, nor would it have prevented the Berlin Christmas attack.

What cash controls do affect, however, are the financial options of law-abiding people.

These policymakers and academics acknowledge that banning cash would reduce consumers’ financial privacy. And that’s true.

But they’re totally missing the point. Cash isn’t about privacy.

It’s one of the only remaining options in a financial system that has gone totally crazy.

Especially in Europe, where interest rates are negative and many banks are on the verge of collapse, cash is a protective shelter in a storm of chaos.

Think about it: every time you make a deposit at your bank, that savings no longer belongs to you. It’s now the bank’s money. It’s their asset, not yours.

You become an unsecured creditor of the bank with nothing more than a claim on their balance sheet, beholden to all the stupidity and shenanigans that they have a history of perpetrating.

Banks never miss an opportunity to prove to the rest of the world that they do not deserve the trust that we place in them.

And for now, anyone who wishes to divorce themselves from these consequences can simply withdraw a portion of their savings and hold cash.

Cash means there is no middleman standing between you and your savings.

Banning it, for any reason, destroys this option and subjects every consumer to the whims of a financial system that is stacked against us.
Marshall Sutherland
  
Sovereign ManSovereign Man wrote the following post Thu, 19 Jan 2017 11:26:32 -0500
Nobel Prize winner says US should “get rid of currency”
Nobel Prize winner says US should “get rid of currency”

In the mid-1800s at a time when the United Kingdom was still the dominant superpower in the world, an English scientist named Francis Galton wrote a series of papers arguing for the selective breeding of human beings.

Galton’s ideas became known as eugenics.

The concept was that genius and talent were hereditary traits passed from generation to generation, and that, to ensure the growth of our species, the best and brightest should be bred like cattle.

Scientists soon began taking measurements of nose angles and forehead slopes in order to establish a correlation between a physical features and talent.

The scientific community concluded that a person with certain physical features was predisposed for great success and achievement.

But it worked both ways.

If your forehead was too wide, or your nose to jaw ratio too slight, you were viewed as morally and intellectually inferior.

Given that many races share similar physical features, this phony science became the moral justification for segregation, slavery, and even genocide.

Today our species is clearly more enlightened, and we can stand amazed that such ridiculous ideas used to be taken seriously.

There will come a time, however, when our descendents say the same thing about us.

Case in point: half a world away at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Nobel Laureate economist Joseph Stiglitz made remarks earlier this week that the US should “get rid of currency.”

He means paper currency, as in the US should not only get rid of $100 bills… but ALL paper currency– 50s, 20s, 10s, 5s, and even 1s.

You guessed it. Stiglitz suggests that regular people don’t need paper money, and that it’s only useful for drug dealers, terrorists, tax evaders, and money launders.

This thinking is so 20th century, and it’s simply wrong.

ISIS is a great example.

The US military has literally blown up more than a billion dollars worth of ISIS’s stockpiles of physical cash during airstrikes.

But this hasn’t affected their terrorist activities one bit.

That’s because the most notorious terrorist group on the planet famously uses both the world’s oldest currency (gold) and the world’s newest currency (Bitcoin).

Professor Stiglitz has likely never been anywhere near a terrorist, so he likely doesn’t have a clue how they conduct financial transactions.

Stiglitz also relies on the old claim that cash facilitates illicit activity.

Again, this thinking only highlights a Dark Ages mentality.

In the today’s world, drug dealers and prostitutes accept credit cards.

No matter what you’re selling on a street corner, whether it’s hot dogs or marijuana, there are plenty of solutions (like Stripe, Square, or PayPal) to easily allow anyone to accept credit card payments.

But these intellectuals seem stuck in a Pablo Escobar fantasy that drug dealers have entire rooms filled with cash.

What Stiglitz, and perhaps many law enforcement agencies, fail to realize is that one of the biggest tools in masking illegal activity is actually Amazon.com.

Specifically, Amazon gift cards.

If you’re looking to quietly and easily pay large sums of money, even tens of thousands of dollars, you can do so with Amazon gift cards.

Amazon gift cards are essentially a “cash equivalent”.

Amazon sells just about everything on the planet, so its gift cards can either be spent or quickly resold for cash.

(You can obscure a financial transaction even more by using an Amazon gift card to buy another gift card…)

Curiously there are no loud, universal calls to ban Amazon gift cards. That’s because these policymakers and academics are stuck in the 1980s.

Instead, they’ve nearly all jumped on board the “cash ban” bandwagon.

These guys just don’t get it.

Cash isn’t about tax evasion or illegal activity.

It’s about having a choice.

Any rational person who actually looks at the numbers in the banking system has to be concerned.

In many parts of the world, banks are pitifully capitalized and EXTREMELY illiquid.

This is especially the case in Europe right now where entire nations’ banking systems are teetering on insolvency.

In the United States, liquidity is also quite low, and banks play all sorts of accounting games to hide their true financial condition.

Plus, never forget that the moment you deposit funds at a bank, it’s no longer YOUR money. It’s the bank’s money.

As a depositor, you’re nothing more than an unsecured creditor of the bank, and they have the power to freeze you out of your life’s savings without even giving you a courtesy call.

Physical cash provides consumers another option.

If you don’t want to keep 100% of your savings tied up in a system that’s rigged against you and has a long history of screwing its customers, you can instead choose to hold physical cash.

There’s very little downside in doing this, especially since most people are barely making any interest in their checking accounts anyhow.

Physical cash means there is no one else standing between you and your savings.

But Professor Stiglitz and his colleagues don’t want that.

They want a massive, centralized bureaucracy to have control over your savings.

This, coming from a man wrote in his 2012 book The Price of Inequality,
“[T]he success of [Apple and Google], and indeed the viability of our entire economy, depends heavily on a well-performing public sector. There are creative entrepreneurs all over the world. What makes a difference. . . is the government.”

Sam Walton, Richard Branson, Steve Jobs, and millions of other entrepreneurs are apparently worthless. To paraphrase Barack Obama, “They didn’t build that.”

All that matters is the government.

Just like his call to eliminate cash, Stiglitz’s entire book is an impassioned argument for MORE centralization and government control.

150 years ago, Francis Galton’s appalling ideas were considered science.

Stiglitz’s ideas are what pass as science today.

They’re equally ludicrous.

And one day our future descendants will look back on our own time and wonder how so many people could have allowed themselves to be fooled.
Marshall Sutherland
  
The War on Cash and Then on Gold

Technical analyst Clive Maund says liquidity issues with banks could lead to restrictions on cash and precious metals.

If only a way could be found to freely tap the funds of savers at will, by imposing duties or taxes on bank accounts, with the additional option to appropriate savers' funds on occasion as required, then the systemic liquidity problems will be solved. Banks need never fear solvency problems again and they can simply fall back on the account holder's funds to meet any obligations. There are in fact already names for these restorative operations, they are called "bails-ins" and NIRP (Negative Interest Rate Policy).

With the escape route into cash set to be blocked off, that leaves precious metals: gold and silver—gold as a store of value and silver more for everyday transactions.

Thus we can expect governments to declare the holding of gold (and silver) to be illegal, and to demand forfeiture to the government in exchange for nominal compensation. Vendors of gold bars will be closed down and mints will not sell retail gold. Unlike the 1930s, this would be a coordinated global campaign, a kind of witch hunt if you will, and there will be no corner of the world that is safe, just as they finished off private banking in Switzerland. Those buying gold and stashing it in various pseudo anonymous remote foreign depositories will be in for a nasty shock as these vaults are arbitrarily raided and plundered, with local and international law being changed as required to facilitate this. Nothing will stand in the way of a system that will not permit alternatives.

It is tempting to blame others for all this, especially those in control of the system, but don't forget that for decades you voted for people who routinely lied before elections, and told you what you wanted to hear, that you could have it all right now and to hell with the future—well, that future has now arrived.
Michael McKinsey
  last edited: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0500  
I am not talking about anything controlled by any government.  This is decentralized not governmental.
Michael McKinsey
  last edited: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 03:04:53 -0500  
Also, the digital cash I am talking about is not impacted by power outages, the human race could be annihilated and aliens could land on the planet in 100 million years and they could deposit the digital cash into your account as soon as they turned on a computer to handle the transaction.

Chaumian digital cash is the idea of anonymous cryptographic tokens which can be redeemed securely by a recipient without revealing the sender.  The tokens serve the function of cash, you can hand the token to someone (or send it to them) the token can be verified and identified as being valid by crypto similar to a digital currency transaction, but the relationship between the individual who created the token can never be connected to the individual depositing the digital cash, so it servers the same purpose as cash in a fiat economy but cannot be counterfeited (of course it can be stolen).
Michael McKinsey
  last edited: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:23:48 -0500  
A chaumian cash digital token is generated the same way you do a digital currency transaction, a signed cryptographic transaction occurs where you move the value from your account into the token.  It is the same things as paying another account but instead of sending the value into the other account you send it into a token which any third party can deposit into their account which can cryptographically be proven to  have the value you transferred into the token without any trace of where that value came from (the transaction is private).  In our system, the value of the tokens is backed up by voting pools of decentralized servers controlling bitcoin and other blockchain digital currencies, but the digital currency that is generating the cash tokens is off chain and in being so, private.  The servers act as notaries, keep no records, and cannot change your balance or steal your currency, and your most current receipt for a transaction holds the entire cryptographic proof needed to prove your balance, the servers keep no records, and all previous receipts can be safely destroyed.

In our system if you were for example interested in starting at your bank account in the US, and ending up with value at another persons bank account in the US, without there being any possible way to trace the transaction, and offering the simplicity and convenience of a credit card or digital payment method, and the privacy and security of cash for the transaction, one possible way to do this (there are obviously hundreds of different details about how you move in and out of the currency that could happen):

1) First you put money into bitcoin or some other digital currency (Coinbase is a place to do that, there are many).  If you use Coinbase this is a transaction monitored by the government, with a paper trail, knowledge of your identity etc.  This can be done in more private ways but for our example it does not matter.

2)Use bitcoin or some other digital currency you trade for bitcoin to buy Fr33dom Coin (this is not live yet, we will have the smart contracts and markets set up hopefully within the next month or two this is in testing).  Depending on how you buy this currency, there is equivalent value a the time of the transaction stored in some blockchain asset (bitcoin, etherum, etc.).

3)Use the offchain private application (currently the android application to do this is functional and in testing, there is a desktop application which works and is stable, the android app is invite only currently but should be available to the public soon, as soon as it is ready) to mint a digital cash token with your balance.  There is no record of this happening anywhere, it is a cryptographic transaction where you authorized your value to be removed from your account and placed in this token.

4)Do your transaction.  Meet someone on the street, buy an apple from them for the value placed in the token, they hand you the apple, you hand them the token.  They can use the smart phone app in their hand to put the value in their account and verify it is a valid piece of currency while you are both holding on to the apple, you will need to work out who lets go first on your own similar to if you were buying an apple for a US dollar one of you would probably give the other one the apple or the dollar first.  The token does not contain identifying information about you, if this person does not already know you, the information from the token does not help them (or any governmental agency or nosy neighbor) figure out who you are.

5)The person who sold you the apple can turn the Fr33dom coin they now have into a digital blockchain asset of choice, and reverse the exchange process if they like, or they can continue to make transactions, for example they can now print their own digital cash transaction, and hand the value to someone else.  This can happen via any electronic worldwide communication method, it is not limited of course to face to face transactions.

6)At some point, when someone decides for some reason they want US dollars again, they withdraw the money as bitcoin or some other blockchain asset and create an exchange account (or hand someone their digital cash token for some US cash tokens).  The original source of the US dollars that bought the digital currency at Coinbase in step 1 is hopelessly lost as far as tracing it back.

The transaction does not need to happen at the same Fr33dom Coin server it was created on, if the value is withdrawn it does not need to be taken out of the same voting pool, and there is no way to link the two transactions and no records kept by the servers or any third party.

During this process, no third party or server ever had control of the value in your currency (well Coinbase did for a few seconds until you transferred it out of their exchange, but you can avoid that by getting your original digital currency some other way, we prefer earn in to buy in, as it has no paper trail and you do not need to trust servers, which we don't like to ever do).  The parties who had the value held the crypto keys needed to transfer the value to anyone else at every stage, the servers cannot change your balances.

This is not the easiest thing to grasp at first for most of the people I have discussed this with over the last couple of years, I hope that helps.  You will be able to go through the above process with live Fr33dom Network applications probably within a month or two, it is all functional now in testing.